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ViragoTechForum.com Tech Help HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions (SOLVED)

#1:  HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions (SOLVED) Author: greenagain Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:01 am

I'm in the process of adding the upgraded starter parts, and sidecover from an 86 XV700 onto my 81 920. Unfortunately the 86 had been partially disassembled when I got it, and now I'm caught on re-assembly.
In the picture below part # 11 Drive Assembly, my question is about the oil seal # 12. On which side of the sidecover do I mount this oil seal?
Does it mount on the outside between the Collar (13) and the sidecover, or do if pre-fit it on the Drive Assembly shaft?

Also I don't have the gasket. Do I dare use an O-ring, or am I being stupid, considering that it'll take a week to get the correct one, and I'm in a bit of a rush. Beat me on this if I deserve it. Rolling Eyes


http://yamahamc.partsandwarranty.com/SSIConverted/224552_100108_024602_2764.png


Last edited by greenagain on Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:24 am; edited 1 time in total

#2:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:11 am

Question # 2 is in regards to wiring.

The added component ( BEndix drive? ) has two large posts that had the cut nubs of two wires. In addition there is a blade connector between the two .

What do I connect to these wires? I currently have the primary starter cable going to the terminal on top of the starter as was in 81.


This photo is of the inside of the case cover.

PICTURE #1

PICTURE #2

#3:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:09 am

greenagain, you've been at this for a bit. I was looking at old posts and you posted on this in April '09. I've since sold my 920 that I did the update on, but if memory serves me, you've got the one hot lead coming from the solenoid by the battery all the way to one of the two second solenoid posts on the engine casing. The second post is connected to the post on the starter. The tab is a ground. I think that oil seal goes on the outside of the engine cover, but I do remember it only went on one way. That gasket, if you're referring to #18, make one or wait for it, or fix the oil leak later... that help?

BTW, that's my best recollection. Make sure you have extra fuses and fire extinuisher handy... :)

#4:   Author: nraluke Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:13 pm

Are you using the original 81 stator and pickup in the 86 case? If so, are they set to the same depth as they were in the 81 case? As for the wiring, when converting my 85 XV700 using 94 XV750 starter and crankcase cover I used this post by cr_roger and the wiring was easy and starter works great. If you can't read the small print then do a search using (permanent and starter and fix) and you will see a posting The Only Permanent Starter Fix Step1 Go to page 1 and look for this post listed by cr_roger.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/nraluke/Untitled.jpg


Last edited by nraluke on Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

#5:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:28 pm

I had jumped the gun with my post, and have gone back and studied since.

Which is the positive and negative on the new solenoid?
IF you look at my picture again one post is taller than the other. Also my new solenoid has 3 ports, and it looks like I'm supposed to have 4.

I am using my original stator in the 86 case.
Any recommendations on on shims?

#6:   Author: mark75 Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:40 pm

if it helps...here's a pic of '86 stator and collar/spacer...
as I recall it was ~ 25-30mm deep.

I think you can still get one here. ~$27
http://www.carolinacycle.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=10375&category=Motorcycles&make=YAMAHA&year=1988&fveh=270



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#7:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: SirDocWolf Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:01 pm

I did this upgrade a couple of months ago to '82 920.
In nralukes post in nov 09(1985 XV700 2nd generation starter conversion)
he has the specs for the shims. I used brass(nipple) tubing cut to size.

#8:   Author: nraluke Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:01 pm

Can't get my solenoid cover loose but here is a picture showing the wiring. With case installed front wire is original starter wire to new solenoid and rear wire is from solenoid to starter plus small wire to outside post on old solenoid. Also have to switch wires on old solonid as per The Only Permant Starter Fix Step1.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n18/nraluke/Untitled3.jpg


Last edited by nraluke on Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:23 pm; edited 4 times in total

#9:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:14 pm

Thanks for the posts guys.

I guess I'm on hold until I get that oil seal #12 that I'm missing.

I'll buy some brass too cause I should be able to cut and file that without too much trouble.

The photo helps. Today I'm going to go and buy 4' of #8 wire to run from the battery to the solenoid. Did you route your new cable down the left or right side?

#10:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: SirDocWolf Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:22 pm

My old eyes are getting bad, but from looking at your pics, it appears to me that the oilseal in there. The oil seal is inside the little seat in the cover. The gear shaft and starter gears seat into it. Look at your cover and then into your inside crankcase wear the shaft seats. If they look the same it is there.

#11:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: SirDocWolf Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:34 pm

Is this the seal you are missing?


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#12:   Author: nraluke Post Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:47 pm

Here is a picture of my original solenoid with the new wiring hook up. On the outside solenoid wire can't really tell where on the newer solenoid it's hooked to but looks as if it's hooked to newer solenoid plug on connection. These wires were already hooked up to the newer solenoid when i converted mine.
It's still being strange.

Here is what I'm finding.

When I connect the ground connection to the - post on the battery I get sparks. Even with the key off. That shouldn't happen, should it? Doesn't that mean there is a circuit bei When I connect the ground connection to the - post on the battery I get sparks. Even with the key off. That shouldn't happen, should it? Doesn't that mean there is a circuit being completed?

With the key off the old solenoid shows power on both posts. More on the + than on the -.
WHen I tap the starter button the - post (the one with the jumper wire) jumps up to equal the power showing on the + post.

With the key OFF the NEW solenoid shows power on the rear post, the one with the lead AND power on the spade post( without anything connected to it). WHy is that? I thought the spade was supposed to get the jump power.

WHen I hit the starter the new solenoid's lead to the starter shows NO change.

The BIG PROBLEM. if I leave the battery connected, the new solenoid will overheat, and likely eventually fry something.

#30:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:04 pm

Progress.

I now KNOW that I have it wired up correctly, thanks to mcarter-17 . Beers


Unfortunately the only way I've been able to make the new solenoid move is by jumping the terminals with a big screwdriver, and whacking the starter with a hammer.

So, either the gears aren't meshing correctly preventing the starter from working, or the starter has a problem itself.

#31:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:04 pm

Wow. It's been almost 2 months since I walked away from this bike.

I got it all put together, and wired up correctly. I made my own battery cables and it first I was pretty suspect of my handiwork. I figured my connections were poorly done, so I took them off, and soldered some, and re-squished some others.

When I check voltage at various points it seems to get 12 or more.
I will say that it turned pretty slowly on it's own so I hooked up a 2nd battery to it. In doing so I almost got it started, but something happened while doing it.

Now it SEEMS like my pusher solenoid isn't working, but when I remove it and hook it directly to a battery it works.
While on the bike, if I press the starter button I can feel a little movement from it. As I type this I'm starting to wonder if my gears are jammed.

I suppose I'm going to try and take out the starter and re-install it.

Any ideas out there?

#32:   Author: mcarter-17 Post Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:07 pm

Green, can you pull that lil cover and move the fulcrum in and out. It just sounds as if the gears are not meshing. Pull the plugs, pull the left side timing cover, pull the cap in the center, with a socket on the rotor nut you should be able to turn the motor purty easily.(turn it clockwise) Grab that fulcrum, turn the engine and see if as the gears mesh it moves even more. You did put the snap ring on holding the bendix on?? Something Happened,,what was that?? I'd sure do all this before pulling that cover again..MC

#33:   Author: grazingazer Post Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:49 am

make sure that all your battery connections are brite and tite...it doesn't take a lot of looseness to lose a battery ground which will then cause the bike not to crank

#34:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:56 am

OK. It turned over fine with a wrench. I pulled the side cover off, looked around and re-installed it.
The starter works, but it seems like the 'plunger' ( the set of gears behind and below the starter seem to be able to get hung up with the plunger in the OUT position. It turned over a few more times and got jammed out again.
I have circlip on the starter shaft, but I'm unsure why this gear set can get caught out like that.

#35:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:05 am

Can anyone tell me if the oil seal #12 is a separate piece or pressed into the the side cover? I think I may be missing it.

http://images.powersportsnetwork.com/fiche/images/YAMAHA/1986/Motorcycles/175_starterclutch.gif

#36:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:18 am

I've been just about ready to set this bike on fire pissed pissed pissed pissed


Today though I isolated the plunger solenoid, and it seems to need me to push it in, as though it's getting up some.

According to my multimeter I still have 12 or 13 volts hitting it.

WHen I take my finger off the start switch it Springs back just fine.

Could it need rebuilding?

AAAHHHHH

#37:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:22 am

A deep breath. I have been where you are now on my 920 as well. That solenoid should cause that plunger to move with a thwack! If not, and you have strong voltage at the solenoid, either something is binding or the solenoid is tired. Can you manually move everything into position, as if you are the solenoid? How about a couple o' pix of the area?

#38:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:52 am

So I just went and pulled the plunger solenoid out from the casing and applied a battery directly to it and it worked just fine, so it leads me back to my cables I guess.
I made new 6 gauge ones, and I was suspicious of them before, but I redid them in what I thought was a satisfactory manner.
I re-used the little skinny wire to the spade post, and I guess it's job is to just trigger the solenoid.

Just to refresh, on this solenoid the positive big cable goes to the solenoid and has constant power. The small spade connection, and the inner, or rear big terminal get power when I'm pressing the START button. They all seem to be getting 12 or 13 volts. I have a new battery, and I'm even using a 2nd battery for extra power.

#39:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:19 am

Need a pic or two green...

#40:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:29 pm

http://greenagain.smugmug.com/DIY/Seat-Recdvery/PICT0013/817546054_XjebG-M.jpg


http://greenagain.smugmug.com/DIY/Seat-Recdvery/PICT0015/817546078_s8zDt-M.jpg

#41:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Ok, so assuming you've got one heavy lead running from the solenoid by the battery to the 'engagement' solenoid in the pic. Assuming the very light wire is ground. And assuming the other medium wire is going to the starter. Is that a 1st or 2nd gen, or 4 brush starter? If I recall right, the solenoid engagement is weak and when it does engage, slow starter motor turning?

#42:   Author: greenagain Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:52 pm

club_c wrote (View Post): Ok, so assuming you've got one heavy lead running from the solenoid by the battery to the 'engagement' solenoid in the pic. Assuming the very light wire is ground. And assuming the other medium wire is going to the starter. Is that a 1st or 2nd gen, or 4 brush starter? If I recall right, the solenoid engagement is weak and when it does engage, slow starter motor turning?


Yes. I have to help push it to get it in. The starter as far as I know is an 86 model, and I just had it freshly rebuilt locally. When I did get it turning, it was pretty slow.

#43:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:20 pm

It seems to me there isn't enough electrical power at the starter, causing the weak engagement. If you were to use jumpers from a cage battery (not running), ground to frame, and hot to the engaging solenoid post that holds the current battery cable (take that one off for the moment), would you get positive strong action? Make sure bike is in neutral. If that all locks in and turns, then the problem is before the starter and solenoid. I remember something about the second gen starters being wired backwards compared to the first gen ones, so see if this little trick eliminates those parts.

#44:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:30 pm

Quote: engaging solenoid post that holds the current battery cable (take that one off for the moment)


Are you referring to the Always hot post, or the hot when STARTED post?

#45:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:08 am

the always hot. that way you are cutting out the key switch, push button, and solenoid at the battery. It should kick in straight away when you touch it with the + cable.

#46:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:29 am

Here is what I did and the reactions I got.
First of all here is my extra battery. I have the Red on the +.

http://greenagain.smugmug.com/DIY/Seat-Recdvery/PICT0001/817973307_xqnHc-M.jpg


If I hook the other + Red to the screw mount in the center of the starter and the Black- to the always hot point on the solenoid I could t If I hook the other + Red to the screw mount in the center of the starter and the Black- to the always hot point on the solenoid I could turn the starter nicely.

http://greenagain.smugmug.com/DIY/Seat-Recdvery/PICT0004/817973369_AiaKb-M.jpg


Here I have the Red+ on the small spade connection on the plunger solenoid, and the Black- on the inner solenoid (STARTER hot) and the solenoid clicks in smartly, and the starter does not turn, even though the cable on the - port runs to the starter's center pole.

http://greenagain.smugmug.com/DIY/Seat-Recdvery/PICT0002/817973328_bnTkz-M.jpg

#47:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:52 am

My head hurts. I think we can safely say your starter and solenoid are working after this function test. So that means it HAS to be wiring. Something isn't quite right. I'm frankly surprised that you didn't get arcing the way you did the testing. I'll have to review the thread to see how you wired up.

#48:   Author: greenagain Post Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:51 pm

club_c wrote (View Post): Something isn't quite right. I'm frankly surprised that you didn't get arcing the way you did the testing. I'll have to review the thread to see how you wired up.



I could only briefly do those things because of the sparking.

#49:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:30 am

A bump for myself. Today I got digital voltmeter so I'm hoping I'll be better able to figure out where I'm losing the most power.
First thing I checked was my original battery and it still reads just over 12 volts.

I think what I'm going to do is add another ground wire or two.

#50:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:26 pm

I haven't forgotten about this. I'm working right now, 1/2 days (6 - 6) plus commuting time, so haven't had the time to review what you did for wiring.

#51:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:17 pm

green, can you confirm your wiring? S/B positive battery post to inside post on solenoid beside battery. From the same solenoid post, long heavy lead to outside post on solenoid on starter. Heavy lead from inside post on starter solenoid to starter post. Lighter lead from empty post on battery solenoid to tab on starter solenoid.

#52:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:03 am

Yup.


Don't ask me why, but this 3rd or 4th disassembly/reassembly did something. I just came from the garage. I hit theSTARTER button 3 times and it's turning over properly.

I'm going to re-attach the clutch cable, button up that sidecover again, add some oil, and see if she'll go!

#53:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:00 am

yeah baby!!! So you've got issues with the cables no doubt. At least see if you're gonna get it fired up.

#54:   Author: pofarm Post Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:17 am

I'm having the same problem with mine. I can get it to kick in and start after several tries, though. I've checked all kinds of things, ran new wires, bypassed the 1st gen solenoid (next to the battery), all to no avail. I'm not sure what to try next. Good luck with yours!

#55:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:46 am

My excitement was short-lived.
After reinstalling the spark plugs, it was WEAK. bawling It jammed itself up again.

Before this new stop in the program, I checked the batteries voltage across the terminals and it was 12.88V. I then followed the live long power cable and it still showed 12.8+.

I grounded against the cylinder head, and during cranking it dropped down to the 9's.
As it is now, I once again have the plunger solenoid snug into the side cover, and I do not have the little connector touching it, and I again have to help the solenoid pull in by pushing with my finger, and when I check the voltage at that point it's 11.88V. When I take the solenoid off the bike and jump it with a battery it works fine again.

#56:   Author: pofarm Post Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:55 am

Oh, mine sticks when the plugs are out, too. I've confirmed that the rotation of the fly wheel, after the bike starts, pushes the #2 starter gear back in, away from the flywheel gear. Without this rotational pushing action, the #2 gear sticks in the flywheel.

#57:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:03 am

Thanks for posting.
I'm cooling my jets for a bit, and I'm going to back and try and jump the starter like I did before. Maybe that will help realign things.

#58:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:14 pm

Waaaa.

My plunger solenoid's guts fell out. I put it back in, and it's plunging, but I don't show any power on the lugged post that runs power to the starter. It only shows about 1 volt when I'm pressing the starter button.

#59:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:27 pm

A bump for myself again
SInce the internals of my solenoid fell out, I've re-installed them, and now the solenoid is plunging properly when I hit the starter button, but the starter does not turn, and when I put my voltmeter on the post that goes to the starter it shows less than 1 volt now.

Do you think my solenoid is wrecked now?

#60:   Author: club_c Post Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:53 pm

Dunno about 'wrecked', but will need to be serviced. Can you get inside to check the portion that feeds that second post? The minimal voltage is for sure why the starter isn't engaging.

#61:   Author: greenagain Post Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:15 pm

club_c wrote (View Post): Dunno about 'wrecked', but will need to be serviced. Can you get inside to check the portion that feeds that second post? The minimal voltage is for sure why the starter isn't engaging.



With the plunger out there were loose pieces inside so yesterday I dropped the solenoid off with the people that rebuilt my starter.
I'll pick it up Monday. What a big, long waste of time with a dodgy part. blasting

#62:  Re: HELP 81 to 86 starter upgrade questions Author: greenagain Post Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:38 pm

Well I got the plunger solenoid rebuilt, and it was still not working.
I broke down and took it to an old school guy.
I spoke briefly with him today he seems to feel that the relay(s) in the current configuration won't work.
There's hope yet! Rolling Eyes

#63:   Author: greenagain Post Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:48 am

Well I'm glad someone is posting in this thread!


I dropped in on my bike at the the Old School Guy's shop. He is pretty convinced that for some reason the relays are not allowing all 12 volts to get to the starter.

Has anyone else felt this way?

#64:   Author: greenagain Post Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:32 pm

greenagain wrote (View Post): Well I'm glad someone is posting in this thread!


I dropped in on my bike at the the Old School Guy's shop. He is pretty convinced that for some reason the relays are not allowing all 12 volts to get to the starter.

Has anyone else felt this way?




Will anyone weigh in on this?
Could I be having a relay issue?

Or should I be grabbing my bike from this guy and running away?