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ViragoTechForum.com » Tech Help » First Gen starter upgrade - THIS WORKS!

#1: First Gen starter upgrade - THIS WORKS! Author: club_c,

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:22 pm

Ok, so I'm gonna attempt cr_roger's starter upgrade on my 920. This is his link, such as it is:

http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4739&highlight=

He also says this on another thread:

You need the left side cover from a XV1000/84/85 or a XV1100 86/87. That's the easier with these covers. You also need the solenoid, the sliding fork and gear and all the hardware related to the that left side cover. As stated before, you must make sure that the engine case is ready to receive the sliding fork. All the 920 we've seen so far are made to take the sliding fork but not the 750/81. I would not want somebody to purchase all the parts and find out that the motor cannot be upgraded.

So I have begun to collect parts and bought these 84/85 1000 parts off ebay. Problem is that I'm not really familiar with the next gen starters. Can someone advise if I've got a good start, or have I wasted some money? Also, will that end of the starter fit onto my 1st gen 4 brush starter (I hope so)?

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#2: Author: connormcmanus,

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:41 pm

so is it just the 81 750 or is it through 83? because I have an 82 and have thought about this upgrade as opposed to the chopper bob rebuild I currently have as i've heard this is not permanent

#3: Author: club_c,

Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:20 pm

cr_roger says that he noted most of the '81 750's didn't have the extra hole in the casing to accept the fork shaft, but found all the 920's he looked at did. You would have to pull off your left side cover to determine if you've got that extra hole.

#4: Author: jgc,

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:14 am

hope this works will be great i might even try it on my 82 if it got the extra hole

#5: Author: club_c,

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:11 am

I PM'd roger last week, but no response, and he hasn't been on this site since June, so I may be having to re-chart this territory on my own...

#6: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:06 am

your parts collection lacks a solenoid w/associated hardware clubbie

#7: Author: club_c,

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:32 pm

yes, thought that might be the case. What do you think, can I use that starter nose I bought on my existing starter?
I know I need a left engine cover, anything else MIA?

#8: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:45 pm

chk the breakdown on http://www.starmotorcycles.com/star/myyamaha/prompt/L3N0YXIvcGFydHMvaG9tZS5hc3B4/Parts%20Catalog/starthere.aspx
select proceed to parts catalogue Beers

Beers

#9: Author: club_c,

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:45 pm

Update, the parts pictured above have arrived and thankfully are complete. Interestingly, the only difference between a first gen short shaft starter and the next gen long shaft starter is the shaft only. I took the long shaft out of the nose cone I got and swapped into a short shaft nose cone. So your those of you looking for a first gen used starter on ebay or whatever, you could use the next gen one (which there seem to be many more available) and just put in your old short shaft. But I digress...

I've bought a new solenoid and just need to pick it up, so the only thing left to find is a left side cover from a 1000/1100/700(86+) and I think I'll be set to give it a whirl.

#10: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:34 pm

have you actually determined that 1000/1100/700(86+) are the same clubbie?

#11: Author: club_c,

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:55 pm

I think so... cr_roger said yes in his brief description of things back in '06. The 700 and 1100 left crank cover use the same p/n, so they're the same, and the 1000 is supposed to work too. Having a real challenge trying to find a cover on ebay, called my bike wrecker an hour from here, he says he has some, so I guess I'll make the trip next week. He's no dummy, really knows what stuff is worth, then adds on 20% :)

#12: Author: club_c,

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:35 pm

So now I have all the parts, I hope. Went to the bike bone yard today and got what I think is the last remaining pieces. I'll have to wait till later in the week to see if it'll go. Work sure gets in the way of stuff.

BTW, this guy has some NOS stuff for V'go's. I'll post his info in a separate thread.

#13: Re: First Gen starter upgrade Author: uncleromo,

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:04 am

Please keep us posted Clubby, I'm really interested in this--local bone yard has lots of parts. Thanks for doing all the research and leg work on this. For us 'first gen guys' this could be a major improvement.

Thanks again

UR

#14: Author: club_c,

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:10 am

Im really just reinventing cr_roger's wheel, but yes, I will report back. Hopefully this week yet...

#15: Author: Aussiexv1100,

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:26 am

Hey clubbie, how much did all those bits 'n pieces on eBay cost?
Aussie

#16: Author: club_c,

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:45 am

The top photo is not mine, though I bought the parts. I don't have a workbench with pink trim. That was $50, solenoid $50, side cover $75.... oh man I'm getting depressed now... If I can sell my old polished side cover for $175 it'll be a wash!! Not cheap, but if you figure what a new #2 gear and a Chopper Bob kit are worth to sweeten up the old system, the upgrade isn't toooo bad...

#17: Author: Aussiexv1100,

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:26 am

If you bought all those parts for $50, then you got a really good buy. The starter clutch alone is worth upto $100. Well bought, I say.
Aussie

#18: Author: club_c,

Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:31 pm

Last night was assembly night. Because I bought an NOS left engine cover, I had to transfer everything from my old cover to the new one. All the parts switched right over - oil level sight window, timing mark sight window, shifter seal, clutch lever mechanism, crank nut cover bolt, and armature. What is now holding me up is a collar in the old casing that the idler gear shaft sits in - wouldn't come out. Took it to the dealer today, he couldn't get it out. Ordered a new one, but next week before it comes in from Toronto.

I test fitted everything onto the bike anyway, everything lines up and fits so far. The old generator side cover fits perfect onto the new case. Truly I think the only difference in the case cover is the extension for the solenoid, and the chrome plating. Confidence is high.

I'll post pix once I know it works...

#19: Author: club_c,

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:13 pm

Now I've come to a wiring challenge. The 920 has a solenoid by the battery, two wires from the starter button go to that, close a circuit and put power to the existing starter.

The '84 starter upgrade has a cable that goes from the battery right to the solenoid on the left engine casing, then back to the starter. The cable has a smaller ground wire attached to it that runs it's length. One end will plug into the new solenoid. The other end...?? The question is, how does the '82 920 starter button now connect to the new '84 1000 solenoid? The '84 doesn't have the solenoid by the battery.

#20: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:54 pm

http://www.viragotech.com/wiring/84_85_FIXED_XV700_XV1000.jpg

#21: Author: Mopar,

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:30 pm

Clubby, I wish Roger would pop in here to give you a hand. I've probably spent a few hours talking to him about this mod over the last 2 years, but as I get older I seem to have come down with a bad case of CRS (Cant Remember Sh**). I do seem to remember him saying there was something unusual about the starter wiring (something about requiring a second switch maybe???) but it seemed to be only a minor hassle and on the upside unless you knew how to start the bike you couldnt. I know that doesn't help. I'll see if I can get hold of him and drag him here,

#22: Author: club_c,

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:06 pm

That would be great... I'm almost there.

#23: Re: First Gen starter upgrade (need a little eletrical help) Author: cr_roger,

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:34 pm

Well thanks to Mopar, I've read your post and I'm gonna give some help on that starter upgrade. I should make a diagram but that'll take a little while. So for now here's a simple explanation. Since you decided to use the long shaft starter, the wiring is must simpler.

The difference between the two circuits is quite simple. One is negative and the other is positive.

confused

confused

That means that when your pressing the starter button on the bendix bike button your actually grounding the wire, giving a negative connection that activates the solenoid (the one beside the battery), which send the power to the starting motor.

As for the solenoid type, when you press the button your connecting the solenoid (the one on the starter) with the positive side of the battery, the +.

There is one thing you do not want to do, is try to change the wiring of that starter circuit. Why you may ask? Well cause you don't need to. It's so f****g simple you won't believe it.

Now here's the solution:

1- disconnect the big wire (on the solenoid besides the battery) that went to the old starter
2- connect the new big wire (the one from the solenoid starter) with the one from the battery on the solenoid beside the battery.
3- connect the little wire (the one from the new starter) to the other side of the solenoid (on the big bolt that use to have the big wire for the old starter.
4- that's it, that's all.

What we did, is use the old solenoid to give a positive signal to the new starter.

Are you ok with what you just read? or do I have to make a diagram?

#24: Author: club_c,

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:25 pm

Hey Roger, good to hear from you one more time. First thing, I'm using a short shaft starter, but just swapped out the shaft for a long one. Don't know if that makes a difference. I would also be interested to know how you use the short shaft, if that's possible.

So if I understand the wiring as described, take off the cable between the starter and the solenoid beside the battery, leave that nut off. Using the new starter cable with the attached parallel smaller wire, mount one end to the starter solenoid at the front of the engine, and the other end goes to the solenoid at the battery, on the post that still has the nut on it (with the short cable from the battery to the battery solenoid). The thin wire running parallel to the new starter cable goes from the tab on the solenoid at the front of the engine to the battery solenoid, the pole that still has the nut removed.

Roger, could you PM me your email in case I have further difficulties?

#25: Author: Mopar,

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:45 pm

Thank you Roger! Stop by once in awhile, will ya? Your expertise is missed.

#26: Author: club_c,

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:46 pm

Mopar, how'd you do that?

#27: Re: First Gen starter upgrade (need a little eletrical help) Author: eaglebeak,

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:47 pm

Clubbie, maybe I can help a little with the diagram that Graz posted since diagrams get confusing once in awhile.

Without rippin' out all the wiring and changing things around, leave your original stuff intact and simply connect the switched hot wire that used to go to your old starter (from the solenoid under the seat) to the small tab on the new solenoid up front. The small tab is the high (+) side of the solenoid's actuator coil, and pressing your start button will pull up the old start relay (under the seat) and put voltage on the coil of the new solenoid to activate it.

Next will be to use large guage wire (at least #8 stranded or #6 better) and run a new power cable straight from the battery's positive terminal up to the large threaded terminal on the back of the new solenoid; this will be the power source that's actually switched to the starter motor when the new solenoid is activated by your old solenoid under the seat.

EB

#28: Author: club_c,

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:26 pm

eb, i'm with you part way. The 'switched' wire doesnt exist on the first gen set up, but I do have that in my new wiring, and what you say matches what roger says.

The heavy gauge wire: you say right to the battery, roger says to the old solenoid fed by the battery. Hmmm.... i'll keep the fire extinguisher handy, and more main fuses available!

#29: Re: First Gen starter upgrade (need a little eletrical help) Author: eaglebeak,

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:45 pm

Sorry if I got confusing, but the "switched" wire is simply the OEM power wire that used to connect to your old starter (that comes from the relay/solenoid under the seat). Instead of it putting voltage on the starter like it used to do, it will only be used to pull-up the coil of the new up-front solenoid.

If you try using the old starter wire (from the solenoid under the seat) to activate the new solenoid (up front) AND power the starter itself, you'll suffer a lot of voltage drop and poor starter operation from the long length of OEM wire that was too small to begin with.

All the later model bikes (with the up-front solenoid) have a large gauge wire running straight from the battery (+) to the large screw terminal on the forward-mounted solenoid (that is un-fused), and the new solenoid is activated by a "start relay" (which will now be your old solenoid under the seat). This lets the new solenoid switch the battery directly to the starter through a large power cable with a minimum voltage drop that provides maximum starter operation.

EB

#30: Author: club_c,

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:10 am

It's time for a diagram... sorry, too many 'solenoids', wires, relays for my taxed brain to sort out. I thought I had it, now I'm not sure.

#31: Author: cr_roger,

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:45 pm

club_c wrote (View Post): ›
It's time for a diagram... sorry, too many 'solenoids', wires, relays for my taxed brain to sort out. I thought I had it, now I'm not sure.

OK I'll try to make one and post it. But it's quite simple. DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT touch any wire on the bike (under the seat, in the headlamp, ect). All you have to do in step one, is remove the large wire that is between the old starter and the solenoid besides the battery. That's it and that's all.

Update: I finally got around to make the electrical diagrams for the conversion and I posted them on the thread I started.

http://viragotechforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=123637#123637

#32: Author: club_c,

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:21 pm

OK Roger, thank you very much. The way you've got the wiring shown in the link is the way I was trying to picture it. Now it's cemented in my mind - sorta... I will report back on the results in the next few days.

#33: Author: club_c,

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:17 am

UPDATE: I finally had enough time to finish this project, and am happy to report it works well. After reviewing roger's wiring diagram it all went together fine. The starter digs in nicely and cranks over well, doesn't kick out or grind. I'll be adding a comprehensive posting shortly with itemized pieces and step by step. Thanks roger!!

#34: Author: funkamongus,

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:48 pm

good for you clubbie!!! glad to hear it worked.

#35: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:53 pm

looking forward to your contribution to the knowledge bank clubbie

#36: Re: First Gen starter upgrade - THIS WORKS! Author: club_c,

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:33 am

The how to of the starter upgrade:

Those with first generation Viragos (1981- 1983) may have a poor performing starter system that can fail to engage, sound like a box of rocks, or kick out during cranking, mainly as a result of wearing parts. The next generation Viragos seemed to have improved the starter system considerably. On the first generation XV920’s, the next generation starter system may be able to be installed, improving starter reliability and performance. Here’s how it goes:

You need the following parts:

• 1984/85 XV1000 or 1986/87 XV1100/XV700 left crankcase cover
• ‘84+ starter solenoid and cover
• long shaft starter
• ‘84+ Starter wheel
• ‘84+ #2 idler gear
• solenoid driver lever assembly
• #2 idler drive fork
• Starter clutch
• A little extra wiring

The new crankcase cover is a direct bolt up to the existing crankcase. The only structural difference is the extension to support the starter solenoid. You need to confirm you have the hole in the crankcase to mount the #2 idler fork. I’m of the opinion that all the 920’s will have it. The European TR1 chaindrive (based on the 920) had this “update” from the being in 1981. I have no information on the 750’s so those owners should confirm that themselves.

The flywheel, idler gear shaft, collar, #1 idler gear, and spring are the same for the first and second generation models, so don’t need to be replaced for the upgrade.

Overall the first and second generation starters are basically the same except for the second gen ones having the longer shaft to accommodate the starter clutch. I was able to obtain the front cone section of a long shaft starter and was able to switch that out onto my new 4 brush short shaft starter without a problem.

So after removing the existing left side cover, starter, and idler gears, the updated #2 idler gear and drive fork are installed, the new starter (or long shaft nose) are installed, and the new left cover is mounted. The starter solenoid is mounted in the cover.

The wiring is surprisingly straightforward, though different. The original starter solenoid beside the battery remains. The heavy power cable between the #2 post on the solenoid and the starter is adjusted by taking it off the #2 post, and mounting it on the #1 post so it is now sharing a post with the shorter cable that comes straight off the battery. The other end is removed from the starter and mounted to the solenoid in the left side crankcase cover. Another shorter lead goes from the other post on the crankcase solenoid back to the starter. A final wire goes from the tab on the crankcase cover solenoid to the vacant #2 post on the solenoid by the battery. That’s it for wiring.

Thanks to cr_roger for pioneering this update and supplying initial information and electrical wiring diagrams.

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#37: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:39 am

nice post...are you intending to kb it?

#38: Author: funkamongus,

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:48 am

Well done... Ill be doing this when my new stuff goes belly up..

#39: Author: club_c,

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:39 pm

grazingazer wrote (View Post): ›
nice post...are you intending to kb it?

I could, but not sure how to...

#40: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:54 pm

go to kb [see light bulb at this page top] that'll take you to "Click on Category to add Article" do that and follow the instructions...simple stuff actually

#41: Re: First Gen starter upgrade - THIS WORKS! Author: MotoMartin,

Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:35 pm

I'm going to attempt this mod on my XV750. It doesn't seem like anyone has converted a 750 yet, so I'll be the guinea pig.

#42: Author: Matty_'81_XV750,

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:01 am

club_c wrote (View Post): › ... First thing, I'm using a short shaft starter, but just swapped out the shaft for a long one. Don't know if that makes a difference. I would also be interested to know how you use the short shaft, if that's possible...

It has been mentioned that it is possible to use a short shaft starter with additional wiring. Rather than needing to spend extra on a long shaft starter just to change over the shaft, does anyone have info as to how to incorporate the short shaft starter?

Cheers, Matt.

#43: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:56 am

my best information holds that the conversion won't work on a 750

#44: Re: First Gen starter upgrade - THIS WORKS! Author: Matty_'81_XV750,

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:47 am

Hi Graz,

As Clubby mentioned here the Australian market may have received the upgraded casing. I have removed my oil filler plug and, unfortunately I don't have an inspection mirror, so I put my little finger through the oil filler and as far as I could tell, my 'hump' section has a hole in it!!!

If I get enthusiastic on the weekend I might pull the side casing off and confirm once and for all.

This sounds promising though...

Cheers, Matty.

#45: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:01 am

get back to us on that and good luck m8

#46: Re: First Gen starter upgrade - THIS WORKS! Author: greenagain,

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:17 am

Cool. I just finished reading this thread. The clean looking garage lump RJ I picked up last week started for me twice before thowing in the rocky towel, and I now I just spotted an advert for a 1986 XV750 that's been going to waste.

#47: Re: First Gen starter upgrade - THIS WORKS! Author: pbrunson,

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:06 pm

OK Club asked me to post the 750 hole here, so this is where I am at.

'82 750, has the hole (See photo "Da Hole"), and yes it is a 750. Sorry only had my cell photo for the photo, and a zippo for light, will get better one later and update.

The other attachments are the OEM and the new gear configuration.

This is also what club sent me,

"You WILL need the new crankcase cover, since it holds the second solenoid. You'll need to concentrate on finding parts from an '84 - '85 XV1000 or an '86 XV700. These parts then are direct bolt in. The newer XV1100 and 750 will work but you also need to change the flywheel and stator, so that's extra cost. I would suggest you post a pic with 'the hole' to have us help you confirm that part. Others would be interested in this since you've got a 750. That hole has only ever been confirmed on the 920's."

So now I am on the hunt for the following.
• 1984/85 XV1000 or 1986/87 XV1100/XV700 left crankcase cover
• ‘84+ starter solenoid and cover
• long shaft (second generation) starter
• ‘84+ Starter wheel
• ‘84+ #2 idler gear
• solenoid driver lever assembly
• #2 idler drive fork
• Starter clutch

When I have all the parts, I will do photo time-line on what I did and the outcome. If there is any advise, comments, or recommendations, please post them.

Thank you club and roger on your posts.

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#48: Re: First Gen starter upgrade - THIS WORKS! Author: pbrunson,

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:28 pm

OK the first parts quote came back. I had to pick myself up off the floor.

"Thanks for contacting XXXX's Cycle Salvage we have the following parts you have requested
85 XV1000
left crankcase cover 275.00
starter solenoid 175.00
solenoid cover 25.00
long shaft (second generation) starter reman 1 year warranty 189.95 exchange
Starter wheel 65.00
#2 idler gear 135.00
solenoid driver lever assembly 25.00
#2 idler drive fork 35.00
Starter clutch 200.00"

Grand Total $1125 jaw drop

jaw drop

So I am still on the hunt for parts.

#49: Author: Aussiexv1100,

Posted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:17 pm

I'b be hunting for those bits'n pieces on ebay, or try and pick up a cheap parts bike and then part out the rest of it.
Aussie

#50: Author: pbrunson,

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:09 pm

Well at least some of the quotes today are better. Three places with all the parts range from $350 to $520 for all the parts.

Now time to see what the local yard has and haggle.

Then the wife... :(

#51: Author: nraluke,

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:22 pm

Pbrunson, you need to do a little deeper rescearch before ordering the parts for your starter conversion. Suggest that you check my post (1985 XV700 2nd generation starter conversion) listed in forum (Wrenchen Secrets & Tips) as the 85 has the same starting system as your bike. You will find that your stator and pickup will be spaced the same as the stator and pickup in the 84/85 XV1000 crankcase cover so you can install yours in the XV1000 case or use the ones already in the XV1000 case but if you use a 86 or newer left crankcase cover the stator and pickup won't match up with your current fylwheel rotor and you will also need 86 or newer rear break peddle and foot peg bars and foot pegs. The post i suggested you check will give you the info you will need to use 86 or newer left crankcase cover on your motor using your current stator and pickup. The cheapest and easiest way to convert is to use 84/85 XV1000 left crankcase cover as you won't need to change rear brake peddle and foot peg bars and foot pegs.

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#52: Author: grazingazer,

Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:26 pm

pbrunson wrote (View Post): ›
OK Club asked me to post the 750 hole here, so this is where I am at.

'82 750, has the hole (See photo "Da Hole"), and yes it is a 750. Sorry only had my cell photo for the photo, and a zippo for light, will get better one later and update.

The other attachments are the OEM and the new gear configuration.

This is also what club sent me,

"You WILL need the new crankcase cover, since it holds the second solenoid. You'll need to concentrate on finding parts from an '84 - '85 XV1000 or an '86 XV700. These parts then are direct bolt in. The newer XV1100 and 750 will work but you also need to change the flywheel and stator, so that's extra cost. I would suggest you post a pic with 'the hole' to have us help you confirm that part. Others would be interested in this since you've got a 750. That hole has only ever been confirmed on the 920's."

So now I am on the hunt for the following.
? 1984/85 XV1000 or 1986/87 XV1100/XV700 left crankcase cover
? ?84+ starter solenoid and cover
? long shaft (second generation) starter
? ?84+ Starter wheel
? ?84+ #2 idler gear
? solenoid driver lever assembly
? #2 idler drive fork
? Starter clutch

When I have all the parts, I will do photo time-line on what I did and the outcome. If there is any advise, comments, or recommendations, please post them.

Thank you club and roger on your posts.

must be the xv750se

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